Homosexuality Is NOT A Choice

[Fuyumine]

I... am going to ruffle a few feathers, I'm sure, but Zac's comment in my artists thread excavated a thought that I have had for a long time and rarely spoke on. To anyone reading this thread's title and finding themselves eager to type up a response, I urge you to read the full breadth of my opinion, instead of simply glancing over the last paragraph for a "summary" of what I've written here. I ask this because I don't want to debate with you when we're saying the same damn thing. Anyway, here goes:

Homosexuality is not a choice. Crazy, I know, but it ain't. But in the same vein, I don't think that homosexuality is the result of some genetic mishap like I've been hearing the past few years. My mother, eager to understand why a three year old boy my grandmother had once babysat was so... well, gay had watched a show detailing the why and how. From the show she'd learned that his ways may have been the result of prenatal hormone exposure and the like, which controls things like... masculinity and whatnot.

By the time the program was over I was screaming "bullshit," and my family was harping on me for it. "The proof is right there!" They kept telling me, but in my eyes it wasn't. It made absolutely no sense. Because suddenly masculinity and femininity dictated a person's sexual preference? It wasn't making sense to me.

It didn't explain why one of my mother's good friends, who is very feminine was very lesbian. It also didn't explain why my uncle's childhood friends, as masculine as he is, is only attracted to men. And when I provided these questions, no one seemed capable of providing answers. They just kept pointing toward the television, telling me to look at the "facts." They were trying to find a rational explanation as to why the little boy was so girly, as opposed to being a "boy." They were trying to understand why he wanted to kiss the other boys my grandmother babysat, as opposed to the girls.

As far as his effeminate behavior is concerned? Environmental influence. The boy is question is an only child, growing up in a single female parent home. Now, not to say that single mothers can't raise straight men, as we've all witnessed it, I'm sure. But let me tell you something about his mother. Not only is she a woman, but she is very woman. She is so flamboyantly feminine that it's ridiculous. Her sisters are this way, too, and this is who he hangs around most of the time. Children don't really develop a personality until they're about two years ago (see: terrible twos). They're finally getting a feel for what they like and what they don't like. And what this boy likes is what he sees: girly stuff. He goes mad for it. Bratz commercials? He hops up and down like a prepubescent girl hearing about the Jonas Brothers arriving in town. He admires femininity, and that's how he carries himself.

As far as his liking boys, go? Goes back to the early identity thing. Ask a gay person—ANY gay person—how long they've been gay, and I fucking promise you that they're going to tell you that they've been that way for as long as they can remember. A gay male can't remember a time that he was honestly attracted to girls. He thought Samantha was pretty in second grade, but that's about it. He dated Vanessa in Junior High because he felt like he was supposed to. He doesn't know why he's attracted to Frank, he just is. The same way Chris can't help the way he feels about Kendra (hi, guys!). It ain't 'cause he was raised that way, it's because it's just who he is. He's been that way since his mind could comprehend those complex feelings like attraction, sexual and otherwise. So when a gay person tells you that they were "born" that way, or that they "didn't have a choice," they're telling you the truth. No matter what your pastor tells you.

The same thing applies to that little boy that my mother so desperately wants to suffer from a genetic mishap. When his mother asked him flat out why he wanted to kiss boys instead of girls, he simply told her "I don't know, I just like boys!" He was four years old, man! She bawled like a little fucking baby over it, even considered spanking him (she's very religious, mind you), but no amount of spanking or scolding is ever going to change who that boy is. He'll suppress it, but it'll still be there.

It doesn't just stop at homosexuality, either. Bisexuals, too. Now, before YOU start crying "bullshit!" at me, hear me out. I'm willing to bet that girl you knew in college you think only makes out or screws girls for show has been attracted to girls for as long as they can remember. Do you honestly, truly think that they only do it because they're "sexual deviants"? Truth of the matter is, even fucking sexual deviants know what the hell they like. Jeffrey Dahmer was a sexual deviant because slaughtering people made him aroused, not because he was gay.

So yeah, homosexuality, bisexuality (pansexuality, if you want to go there) ain't a choice, and in the same vein I don't think people are born that way—in the literal sense, that is. You disagree, feel free to discuss!

Sidenote: I am very, very, very nervous about this particular topic. I don't expect the discussion to be a "safe" one (which is why I've been making posts like these lately), I just don't know what kind of reaction I'm gonna get... so, yeah. LOL

[Mellusia]

*looks at tags*

"glaad bags", what? xD

I'll just keep this short and simple and say that I'm all aboard for the not-a-choice fact for homosexual people. For quite a while I've been convinced that being attracted to someone of the same gender is far from a choice and I'm very accepting of homosexual males and females anyways. It's none of my business who you decide to be with and it has no effect on me, and shouldn't matter to anyone else either.

And anyways, regardless of how much we've come in terms of acceptance, there's still a helluva lot of anti feelings over it, so I'd think that some people wouldn't happily "come out" unless they feel safe in their environment.

The bit about being bisexual does interest me since I did find that as a bit of a gray area o.o

@Side-Note: Heh, this is definitely a volatile topic, so I understand your fears.

I'd like to think we're all mature enough to be accepting of other people's view and arguments without being offensive and holding personal grudges >.<

[Fuyumine]

*looks at tags*

"glaad bags", what? xD

XD I've been throwing easter eggs in all of my tags lately.

I'll just keep this short and simple and say that I'm all aboard for the not-a-choice fact for homosexual people. For quite a while I've been convinced that being attracted to someone of the same gender is far from a choice and I'm very accepting of homosexual males and females anyways. It's none of my business who you decide to be with and it has no effect on me, and shouldn't matter to anyone else either.

And anyways, regardless of how much we've come in terms of acceptance, there's still a helluva lot of anti feelings over it, so I'd think that some people wouldn't happily "come out" unless they feel safe in their environment.

Right. One of the biggest reaons misconceptions about homosexuality being a choice exists is due to the fact that people are not usually open about their sexual preference until they've reached adult hood. So when Jane sees Dick suddenly hanging on Jack's arm, she takes it as "Wow, he suddenly switched teams!" rather than "Oh, this might have been who he was all along."[/quote]

The bit about being bisexual does interest me since I did find that as a bit of a gray area o.o

Yeah. That's another big misconception, too. Even a lot of gay people feed into the myth that bisexuality doesn't truly exist, and that there's some choice involved. I'm sure any bisexual person can tell you that they're attracted to people period, and it ain't just sexual, either.

@Side-Note: Heh, this is definitely a volatile topic, so I understand your fears.

I'd like to think we're all mature enough to be accepting of other people's view and arguments without being offensive and holding personal grudges >.<

I can only hope, man.

[Contra Fates]

I agree about 90% to the 'homosexuality is not a choice,' statement, only because I do believe there is at least 10%, if not more than that, of cases where it's environmental or influenced by others past adolescence.

I studied homosexuality in Psychology, and there were plenty of theories surrounding it. The resounding lesson was that it 'was not a choice,' but the theories themselves varied.

One theory was that it was hormonal, as we studied many cases with families that had many sons, and that the youngest son was typically homosexual. The conclusion was that after producing a certain amount of sons, women do not produce the same testosterone in the womb that is needed for developing male embryos. The idea was that estrogen substituted in for the testosterone.

Another theory was that homosexuals had a part of their brain that was enlarged. Unfortunately I forgot what the name of this part of the brain was, but it was the theory that seemed to make the most sense to me. Unfortunately the only way to research it was to cut open the brains of deceased homosexuals, so there isn't going to be too much on this study for a while.

Now, I am entirely on the fence about bi-sexuality, because I feel that it's just a rare phenomenon in the cases that it's a truly instinctual decision. I'd equate true bi-sexuality to being about as common as hermaphrodites, which is something I need to add more into this debate. In almost ALL of the instances I've experienced bi-sexuality it was with people who were doing it for attention, or were doing it because society seems to frown upon homosexuality, but bisexuality, hey, that's hot!

Now, I like to think that the only reason that homosexuality is so highly debated in terms of it 'being a choice,' or not, is because it has no physical attributes to it, like being a hermaphrodite for example. No one questions the existence of hermaphrodites, nor do they wave the 'evil' word around, because it's a physical, genetic mutation that people can see and therefore have proof of. I believe it's because of this that people search for 'concrete proof' that homosexuals are gay because of some chemical or genetic reason. That way they feel like they can sweep it under the rug and blame it on bad genes, instead of a plethora of environment findings.

Just like there's no set rule for why people are attracted to certain people, I don't think there's a set 'reason' for people being homosexual. There's always different scenarios and circumstances, and just like how people are all very different, as are homosexuals. There's the feminine ones, there's the masculine ones, there's the ones who will lie to themselves throughout their entire lives, even get married, and later on in life will admit they're gay and seek out a same-gendered companionship. It's such a complex thing that I don't think we've really scratched the surface when it comes to figuring what makes it happen.

I could go on about this forever, but I'll end this post here for now. xD Yay for glad bags!

[Fuyumine]

I agree about 90% to the 'homosexuality is not a choice,' statement, only because I do believe there is at least 10%, if not more than that, of cases where it's environmental or influenced by others past adolescence.

I studied homosexuality in Psychology, and there were plenty of theories surrounding it. The resounding lesson was that it 'was not a choice,' but the theories themselves varied.

One theory was that it was hormonal, as we studied many cases with families that had many sons, and that the youngest son was typically homosexual. The conclusion was that after producing a certain amount of sons, women do not produce the same testosterone in the womb that is needed for developing male embryos. The idea was that estrogen substituted in for the testosterone.

Another theory was that homosexuals had a part of their brain that was enlarged. Unfortunately I forgot what the name of this part of the brain was, but it was the theory that seemed to make the most sense to me. Unfortunately the only way to research it was to cut open the brains of deceased homosexuals, so there isn't going to be too much on this study for a while.

Now, I am entirely on the fence about bi-sexuality, because I feel that it's just a rare phenomenon in the cases that it's a truly instinctual decision. I'd equate true bi-sexuality to being about as common as hermaphrodites, which is something I need to add more into this debate. In almost ALL of the instances I've experienced bi-sexuality it was with people who were doing it for attention, or were doing it because society seems to frown upon homosexuality, but bisexuality, hey, that's hot!

Now, I like to think that the only reason that homosexuality is so highly debated in terms of it 'being a choice,' or not, is because it has no physical attributes to it, like being a hermaphrodite for example. No one questions the existence of hermaphrodites, nor do they wave the 'evil' word around, because it's a physical, genetic mutation that people can see and therefore have proof of. I believe it's because of this that people search for 'concrete proof' that homosexuals are gay because of some chemical or genetic reason. That way they feel like they can sweep it under the rug and blame it on bad genes, instead of a plethora of environment findings.

Just like there's no set rule for why people are attracted to certain people, I don't think there's a set 'reason' for people being homosexual. There's always different scenarios and circumstances, and just like how people are all very different, as are homosexuals. There's the feminine ones, there's the masculine ones, there's the ones who will lie to themselves throughout their entire lives, even get married, and later on in life will admit they're gay and seek out a same-gendered companionship. It's such a complex thing that I don't think we've really scratched the surface when it comes to figuring what makes it happen.

I could go on about this forever, but I'll end this post here for now. xD Yay for glad bags!

And that is why all of that "hormonal," "enlarged brain" business makes absolutely no sense to me. Because like you stated in your last paragraph, there ain't a set rule for why people are attracted to the things they are. There might be for a dog, but not for a human being. The human brain is a lot more complex, a lot more complicated.

I am by no means a scientist, but I am willing to bet that if I took estrogen pills that my attraction toward men would most definitely not increase.

As far as bisexuality goes... I don't think there is a such thing as "true" bisexuality, because in that belief lies the misconception that attraction ends at just sex. It doesn't, and any "bisexual" that says otherwise, I think, is full of shit. You have to remember that we live in a society where—despite our growing social achievements—it is still very uncool and unacceptable to have any homosexual feelings.

Which is why we have this new trend going on with guys, the "Down Low" man. Here is a man that tells himself that it's perfectly 'straight' and acceptable to fuck another man up the ass because he's the one doing the 'pitching', or that he doesn't harbor any emotional attachment to the man. Why? Because his friends and family are close-minded and it'd be impossible for him to admit that hey, he's actually attracted to guys, too. And hey, he can't possibly be homo because he doesn't like the guy he's porkin' like that. But in the end, if he wasn't into fucking guys he be just as capable of pounding some broad without feeling any emotional attachment to her whatsoever. But give him the opportunity and watch a relationship grow.

Hormones and genes have no impact on feeling, I think.

[Hannibal Lecter]

In my point of view, I'm actually a bisexual. I didn't choose this because I just got attracted to...attractive woman since I was 4, I believe. I even made out with one girl an age older than me behind the couch. I'm confessing that because I just want to let you know that I'm not embarrassed about my bisexuality. I wouldn't be attracted to my fellow schoolmates because I'm normally attracted to celebrity women, with their perfect body and faces and all.

I heard this article about telling if you're homosexual, bisexual, or straight. It simply said that on your left and right hand, look at the three longest fingers. Is the index finger longer than the ring finger, compared to the middle finger? If yes, you're straight. If not, you have a chance of being gay/bi. Both my ring fingers are longer than the index, which could possibly show proof that I'm bi/gay. It could be just a ridiculous theory, but it's somebody's way of telling, not mine.

You can't just suddenly decide you're bi. Look, I got extremely attracted to Megan Fox on her performance in Transformers 2. A lot of men and some women just have a fatal attraction to her. It can't be by choice, guys. All I'm saying is that, in my opinion, homosexuality and bisexuality can not be 99.9% by choice.

[Fuyumine]

In my point of view, I'm actually a bisexual. I didn't choose this because I just got attracted to...attractive woman since I was 4, I believe. I even made out with one girl an age older than me behind the couch. I'm confessing that because I just want to let you know that I'm not embarrassed about my bisexuality. I wouldn't be attracted to my fellow schoolmates because I'm normally attracted to celebrity women, with their perfect body and faces and all.

I heard this article about telling if you're homosexual, bisexual, or straight. It simply said that on your left and right hand, look at the three longest fingers. Is the index finger longer than the ring finger, compared to the middle finger? If yes, you're straight. If not, you have a chance of being gay/bi. Both my ring fingers are longer than the index, which could possibly show proof that I'm bi/gay. It could be just a ridiculous theory, but it's somebody's way of telling, not mine.

You can't just suddenly decide you're bi. Look, I got extremely attracted to Megan Fox on her performance in Transformers 2. A lot of men and some women just have a fatal attraction to her. It can't be by choice, guys. All I'm saying is that, in my opinion, homosexuality and bisexuality can not be 99.9% by choice.

LOL I was really hoping someone here was bisexual so that they could retell their own experience. Good post. *Nod, nod.*

[BlackJack]

Well, I must admit, this makes a lot more sense than than the genetics argument.

I still disagree. But my point would be lost amid the other opinions (not to mention it's quite frankly an argument I've grown tired of making). I also have had some bad experiences with people erupting into arguments when I debate online, even when people have previously stated a desire to keep arguments at a minimum. So I'll just leave my opinion simple unless I feel sufficiently provoked.

[Fuyumine]

Hey, dude, trust me, I know what you mean. It's one of the reasons I was reluctant to even make this thread in the first place. It's one of those sensitive topics that can either be civilly debated on, or turned into an all-out flame war that will determine the End of the Internets. So yeah, I understand, bro. =\

[Unclesatan]

Are you kidding? I know tons of females who have gone lesbian because too many guys were assholes to them.

Yeah, it could NOT be a choice, but I'm sure alot of people choose to be homosexual.

[Fuyumine]

Are you kidding? I know tons of females who have gone lesbian because too many guys were assholes to them.

Yeah, it could NOT be a choice, but I'm sure alot of people choose to be homosexual.

But that point raises an interesting question, and may further prove a point I was making above: did these girls "suddenly" become lesbians or were there some latent feelings towards the same sex that you couldn't see or what they would not reveal?

I have no doubt in my mind that the girls that you know that "went lesbian" after being wronged by men had homosexual feelings before hand. Because the reality is that homosexuality just doesn't happen. It's not something you just turn on, like, "today, I enjoy vagina instead of penis!" and vice versa. If they were never attracted to females beforehand, I guarantee that their future relationships with women have and never will work out.

[Unclesatan]

I think it was more like a slow conversion over the period of many months, because my friend was absolutely anti-gay, and actually used to be prejudice against gay people. She used to scream at gay people on the street, but now she's lesbian because she's had so many boyfriends that abused her. It's like "wow, guys are assholes, I'll never find a nice guy.. I might as well be gay.", then they start thinking seriously about actually being gay.

I've helped alot of my friends, who happen to be females, through bad guy problems.. a couple of them just told me that they hate guys and would rather just date their actually nice girl friends.

I think it could be both a choice and not a choice.. probably depends on the person.

[Fuyumine]

See, but that's the kind of thing that doesn't convince me at all. A lot of the people who are so openly anti-gay almost always end up having some homosexual feelings themselves. It's kind of like those football players who go around rallying against "fags," but occasionally let Brandon give him fellatio on the locker room.

One of the best methods to throw people off of you is to be against it, especially when you're unsure if the people around you are cool with homosexuality. You have to put on all of these fronts to convince people that you don't possess certain feelings about things.

[Unclesatan]

That could be very true too.. but I've done some gay things myself back in the day, and had some gay feelings as well, but you could say I "got over it", or something like that, because I am 0% gay today. People do experiment, so maybe they like girls more than boys or boys more than girls. You can't tell me you never had gay shit happen when you were a little kid? Almost every person I know has done some sort of gay thing with their friends when they were young. XD

[Fuyumine]

LOL I think everyone would be lying if they said that they've probably never done anything gay when they were children. We've all had the "show me yours, I'll show you mine" scenarios that, I think, were out of sheer curiosity rather than latent homosexuality, you know?

[Unclesatan]

LOL I think everyone would be lying if they said that they've probably never done anything gay when they were children. We've all had the "show me yours, I'll show you mine" scenarios that, I think, were out of sheer curiosity rather than latent homosexuality, you know?

Well of course, but people do go further than "show me yours". I was actually doing other things, and getting.. other things in return. I actually got many more of my friends to do those things with me because I liked them, and I couldn't do them with girls. Honestly, I was pretty gay when I was younger.

[Fuyumine]

LOL Oh, wow.

Who knows, there is a possibility that you are a latent bisexual?

[Unclesatan]

The thing is, I have absolutely no gay thoughts about males, and I hang out with one guy, just about every day. Girls consume 100% of my thoughts, so I'm pretty sure I'm not bisexual. Even thinking about being gay and having a boyfriend makes me shiver. I just couldn't be gay, period. Nothing against gay people of course, it's just not for me. At least, it isn't for me NOW. Couldn't say the same 8 years ago.

[Fuyumine]

*Nod.* Understandable. That's an interesting to know, though. Kind of makes you think.

[Unclesatan]

Yeah, that's why I say I think a good portion of the time, being homosexual is a choice.

I actually heard once, that if you're a guy, you have more of a chance of being gay by genes. Not sure about that one though.